Group 1: Duty to promote public awareness (Amendments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Llywydd:
We will first discuss group 1. The first group of amendments relates to the duty to promote public awareness. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 1 and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the amendment and to speak to the other amendments in the group—Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet:
Thank you, Llywydd. I speak to amendments 1 to 5, which relate to the duty to promote public awareness. Of course, we tabled these amendments at Stage 2 with the view that, because this is such a controversial piece of legislation with far-reaching effects on ordinary, otherwise law-abiding parents, the Welsh Government must continue its public awareness campaigns beyond the Bill's Royal Assent. Again, I would argue that, despite the Bill's aims to deter a certain type of behaviour, the potential consequences of removing the defence of reasonable punishment could not be more significant. This exposes parents to criminal penalties, rather than lesser civil offences, such as with the smoking ban, meaning that, for parents and families, permanent criminal records, harm to employment chances and potential separation could be the end result. Therefore, public awareness must be a central plank of the Bill's application.
So, amendments 1 and 5: turning to amendment 1, at Stage 2, the Deputy Minister assured the committee that there would be public awareness campaigns beyond the Bill's Royal Assent, therefore she believed that this amendment was not necessary. Now, if future Welsh Governments are to report on the effectiveness and the consequences of the Bill to the Assembly, then surely public awareness is central to the Bill's success on changing behaviour and should also be considered in tandem by the Government. It's true that this amendment does not have a time limit, but we don't expect this to be continually applied ad infinitum. Amendment 1 is intended to ensure that the Assembly, when assessing and having an input to the Bill's application, is able to conclude how aware the public is of the Bill's consequences and whether future Welsh Governments do need to go further in their own campaigns.
During the passage of the Scottish Bill, stakeholders giving evidence before the Equalities and Human Rights Committee noted that, aside from the public awareness campaigns at the time of legislation, there must also be a recognition that, because people are becoming parents all the time, there must be an ongoing commitment to campaigning around awareness. This is actually an excellent point that clearly shows the necessity for an ongoing awareness campaign. Parenting does not stop at a Bill's Royal Assent, nor does it stop six years later. Deputy Minister, I believe that it's your duty to take the Welsh public along with you, rather than to create an atmosphere of hostility and resistance, and continuous public awareness is vital for you to achieve that goal.
Despite this Bill being laid before us for nearly a year, the feedback that we have received has been overwhelmingly negative. The committee's consultation showed that nearly two thirds of the respondents did not support this Bill. The Welsh Conservatives' own survey showed that 79 per cent of respondents were against the ban, with comments including the following: 'The state should not be telling people how to parent. There are already laws in place', and 'It is not necessary to seek to criminalise parents. The impact on a child of a parent taken away by police is greater than the impact of a slight smack.'
Such strength of opinion suggests that much more work needs to be done by the Welsh Government to gain acceptance for this idea outside, of course, of the usual professional circles.
Amendment 5 extends the awareness-raising campaign to visitors to Wales. At Stage 2, I did outline that while the chief Crown prosecutor stated,
'ignorance of the law is no defence',
more cases in Wales would pass the evidential stage than in England, raising issues of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales. Furthermore, while I really welcome the Deputy Minister's correspondence with the strategic implementation group and her commitment to consider awareness raising for visitors to Wales, I would be grateful if she could answer a concern I raised at Stage 2. In my speech to the committee, I asked the Deputy Minister about the options she will be considering with the strategic implementation group specifically about visitors to Wales. So, I therefore do urge Members to consider this amendment carefully and to support the meaning behind it, so that future parents are not disadvantaged by this Bill.
Amendment 2. Speaking to amendment 2, this relates to information that is available to parents on alternatives to physical punishment. The Deputy Minister promised that she would ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, but we believe that a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would guarantee the maintenance of a successful awareness-raising campaign.
So, I was dismayed that the Deputy Minister rejected my arguments at Stage 2. I disagree with her own arguments put forward that the parenting expert group's thinking about future campaigns would be constrained by this amendment. How? This is intended to be constructive and it is very unlikely that any expert group or future Welsh Government would disagree with the need to show parents the support available to them, so that they don't use corporal punishment.
During evidence, stakeholders raised deep concerns about groups of parents who could be much harder to reach. We also heard that the Welsh Government's current support package, 'Parenting. Give it Time' was woefully inadequate, missing a crucial cross-section of Welsh society because it is only available online. With this amendment, we're not placing too much emphasis on certain groups of parents, Deputy Minister; we're wanting to include everyone. The updated regulatory impact assessment has said that the age range of 'Parenting. Give it Time' would be expanded and in the last fiscal year, around £30,000 was actually identified to develop new resources. So, will the Deputy Minister provide an update on how this is progressing and whether tools are now available to those without access to the internet?
Finally, I must emphasise to Members here today that this amendment is not seeking to achieve a more complex constrained Bill, but we want to have some input as a Parliament to how the awareness of a smacking ban will be achieved. This will be an Act of the Assembly, not the Welsh Government, if it is passed at Stage 4. So, I therefore urge the Deputy Minister and Members to consider how we explain to our constituents across Wales about their involvement in making parents aware of the Bill's consequences.
Moving to amendment 3, on amendment 3, this ensures that the public are provided with information about what they can do if they see something. I think that the Deputy Minister's repetition at Stage 2 that safeguarding is everybody's business doesn't cut through to the concerns that we have. We want to make sure that members of the public are confident enough to feel that they have correctly judged a particular situation. And to judge is the key point here. The Welsh Government is asking everyone to be well equipped enough to see that an incident would definitely merit police or social service involvement. It would only be after a visit from the police or social services that context could be determined. By then, of course, the damage could already be done.
In evidence, the Welsh NHS Confederation and Swansea Bay UHB were concerned that the Bill's explanatory memorandum does not provide sufficient clarity on the definition of acceptable behaviour once the defence is removed, which could lead to more referrals. So, I therefore think that the Deputy Minister needs to re-evaluate her previous comments that it's up to the individual to do what they think is right in that circumstance, because, frankly, it's a bit of a cop-out. The answers we received at Stage 2 did not reassure me that individuals would be confident enough to know what to do in the event of seeing or learning of a child being physically punished. If the Deputy Minister's view is that it is up to the individual, then the Welsh Government has a duty to ensure that those who are reporting incidents are fully informed as to whether they should be or not and whether they are making things better or worse for the child. Alternatively, if this is not the case, then the Welsh Government should be clear that if the defence of reasonable punishment is removed, physical punishment is indefensible in criminal law. So, the public would have to report it regardless of the circumstances. So, I therefore, once again, ask Members to consider this very carefully and to support our amendment.
Amendment 4: I have re-tabled amendment 4 because I feel that we didn't receive a full or satisfactory response from the Deputy Minister about promoting awareness of the smacking ban amongst children themselves and young people. While I do respect the Deputy Minister's promises at Stage 2, I go back to the point that this amendment was based on a committee recommendation. What is the point of having committees if we ignore their recommendations? This was because we weren't satisfied with the Deputy Minister's replies on how the smacking ban would be taught in the new curriculum. I simply cannot accept that the Bill's objectives would be merely considered as part of developing the new curriculum. We need a clear response from both the Deputy Minister and the Minister for Education on how this is going to work. This legislation will precede the curriculum legislation, so we cannot be assured that it will be included in every school. The Deputy Minister also admitted that the new curriculum would not be designed to specify detailed lists of topics for teachers, so this could mean that awareness lessons differ from school to school, potentially leading to patchy knowledge of a law and its implications.
I welcome the updated explanatory memorandum that explains that work is being carried out to consider the legislation's objectives within the development of the new curriculum, but it does state that practitioners who develop the areas of learning and experience are still going through feedback and are considering how the guidance can be refined. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister would provide us with an update on their ongoing work, as well as a time frame for the Assembly to have sight of this guidance.
During Stage 2 discussions, the Deputy Minister did not quite respond to my specific questions, so I would therefore be grateful if the Deputy Minister would answer the following today: Deputy Minister, will you update us on the discussions you are having with the education Minister to embed uniform teaching of the smacking ban in the new curriculum? Also, will you advise how teaching of the smacking ban will inform children in a balanced way? And, also, how is the Deputy Minister addressing risks encountered by younger children who are unable to articulate their concerns? And of course, these weren't included within the Bill's equality impact assessment. Given that the Deputy Minister is seeking to protect the rights of the child through this Bill, it is only right for Assembly Members to be able to know how children themselves will be taught in the future. So, I therefore call on all Members to support this amendment.
Rounding off this set of amendments on awareness raising, I'd like to end with this point, which was so ably raised by my colleague Suzy Davies AM at Stage 2. She said, unless some of these amendments are accepted by Members of this Welsh Parliament, the position with this Bill is that our influence will be precisely zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. So, I therefore urge Members to consider these amendments carefully before casting their votes. Thank you.
Janet closing the debate:
Thank you, Llywydd. If I can just say at the onset, before I start my next part, I am trying to be helpful. This is going to pass; we know already where the votes are today with Labour and Plaid Cymru. However, part of my role as an Assembly Member in scrutiny is to challenge as well, and I am, in my own way, trying to be helpful.
Now, what I'm asking isn't untoward. Examples of an open-ended duty of awareness can be found within the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill, with the duties placed upon the health bodies and local authorities to promote awareness of the proposed citizen voice body. There is nothing to suggest that this is time-limited. So, there is no reason why this Bill could not have actually had that approach.
I still believe a public awareness campaign is vital. In New Zealand, a nationwide poll found that half of New Zealanders believe that the 2007 anti-smacking law has caused a decline in discipline. Almost 40 per cent of mothers of young children say they have smacked despite the law change, and the Curia Market Research poll of 1,000 respondents surveyed at the beginning of December also found low-income families—63 per cent—were far more likely to flout the law. Seventy per cent said they would not report a parent who they saw smacking their child on the backside or hand, while 20 per cent would. Twenty-two per cent of parents with young children said their child had threatened to report them to the authorities if they were smacked. Fifteen per cent of parents with young children had said they were aware of a family that had been negatively affected by the law, and 17 per cent of parents with young children said the law had made them less confident as a parent; 21 per cent of fathers.
So, those are my views, I would ask Members to support—. I cannot see, in my own mind—and members of the public have asked me, why there would be any reticence, and if this law is going to come forward, why you would not actually want to make the awareness campaign as strong as it could be, and by that, I mean placing it on the face of the Bill.
Group 2: Reporting requirements (Amendments 6, 11)
Llywydd:
That brings us to the second group of amendments, and this group of amendments relates to reporting requirements. Amendment 6 is the lead amendment in this group. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the lead amendments and to speak to the other amendment in the group. Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet:
Diolch, Llywydd. I now want to turn to amendments 6 and 11 on the post-implementation review, but first I would like to thank the Deputy Minister and her team for assisting us with those amendments, as outlined in her letter of 11 December to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Both my colleague Suzy Davies and I welcome the constructive tone of our discussion with the Deputy Minister. Second, I very much welcome the Deputy Minister's letter of 11 December to the strategic implementation group, which requested the views of the group on the amendments I tabled at Stage 2 about the contents of the post-implementation review, including: the number of people prosecuted for corporal punishment in Wales; the number of reports made to police of corporal punishment of a child taking place in Wales; the number of reports made to social services departments of corporal punishment; costs incurred by devolved Welsh authorities; and the number of staff employed by any devolved Welsh authority who have attended training as a consequence of this Bill.
So, briefly, amendment 6 enables Welsh Ministers to prepare two reports on the effect of the changes this Bill brings and lay them before the National Assembly for Wales. The first report will be three years from the commencement of year 1, and the second after five years.
Amendment 11 is consequential and technical in nature, providing for changes due to the removal and replacement of section 3 of the Bill. At Stage 1, the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee recommended that the reporting period be brought in line with the ordinary timetable for post-legislative scrutiny, but three years after the commencement of the legislation. So, as it currently stands, the Bill's post-legislative scrutiny timetable would mean its effect would not be formally assessed until seven years after it has passed. So, I am thankful that the Deputy Minister has, quite rightfully, recognised our concerns and those of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee through our discussions at Stage 3. Therefore, I commend Members to support this amendment.
Group 3: Duty to ensure sufficient funding (Amendments 7, 8)
Llywydd:
Group 3 is our next group of amendments. The group relates to a duty to ensure sufficient funding. Amendment 7 is the lead amendment, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the lead amendment—Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet:
Turning to amendments 7 and 8 on a duty to ensure sufficient funding for devolved authorities, these have been brought forward from Stage 2, where I outlined that we have ongoing concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities as well as the lack of quantifiable costs within the Bill's regulatory impact assessment.
Whilst amendment 7 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards, I note that amendment 8 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by the Welsh Government. Anticipating the Deputy Minister's response that few under this category, if any at all, would be affected by the Bill, we're pursuing a principle here, and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from the Deputy Minister and Members present today.
I do accept the Deputy Minister's argument at Stage 2 that some of the witnesses didn't believe there would be much of a cost element, although I previously produced conflicting evidence on that score. We are still not at the point where we can confidently say that this won't impact our public services. I also thank the Deputy Minister for providing an updated regulatory impact assessment ahead of Stage 3 proceedings today, yet the Deputy Minister admitted to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee in a letter of 7 January that she is still unable to produce a complete estimate for referrals for physical punishment at an all-Wales level. Now, this is crucial to determine the cost to our public services.
I note specifically that the Deputy Minister's team was only able to produce estimates for three—yes, three—out of 22 local authorities, and even those figures were extremely caveated. I am therefore still cautious about the potential effects the Bill could have on already limited budgets for public bodies, which is why I tabled both amendments again. The Deputy Minister has previously said that the National Assembly for Wales can always make an argument for additional funding through the budget-setting process, and that future Welsh Government spending priorities will change. This response worries me deeply. Essentially, if either a budget suggestion on extra funding is voted down by Welsh Government or their spending priorities change, public bodies themselves will be left to pick up the pieces and the costs borne out of a Welsh Government pledge. [Interruption.] Yes.
Mike Hedges AM:
You've talked about the additional costs. What about the savings that may occur because of a lack of psychological damage to children from being hit, and what about the savings that can be made in that parents not starting off with hitting a child lightly don't move on to hitting them more violently?
Janet:
Well, in respect of that, I think, if you'd been involved in the debates all through the Stages, one of the conflicting arguments is that children can be very badly psychologically damaged by coercive control and other forms of punishment that affect their mental health and well-being. So, I don't really want to agree about the psychological impact of a child having what is considered by many parents reasonable chastisement.
Finally, I draw Members' attention to evidence from the Welsh Local Government Association, who said at Stage 1 that there must be
'a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales.'
We are in doubt that this should be the case. Therefore, I commend this amendment to be supported.
Janet replying to the debate:
Diolch, Llywydd. I would just like to put on record that, as the elected Member for Aberconwy, my own social services department, especially when it comes to work with families, is very overstretched, and that is plainly as a result of a lack of fair settlement to it. I can tell you, it does not really echo well for this Chamber that we are going to be passing legislation without amendments on cost, when one considers that, of 22 local authorities that have been approached for estimates, only three have been able to respond. I find that a very weak position for this Welsh Labour Government. But I will move to the amendments now, please
Group 4: Regulation-making powers in the Bill (Amendment 9)
Llywydd:
The next group of amendments is group 4, and the amendments relate to regulation-making powers in the Bill. Amendment 9 is the lead amendment and only amendment in this group. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 9—Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet:
Diolch, Llywydd. I speak to amendment 9, which my colleague Suzy Davies AM also tabled at Stage 2. This amends section 4 on regulation-making powers for Welsh Ministers. As Suzy noted in Stage 2, what is now section 4 is not a separate commencement power to section 1, and it is likely you will need regulatory powers to introduce the reports into the Bill's effectiveness as well as the awareness campaign. As it is drafted, section 4 may not give enough powers to the Deputy Minister during the course of the Bill to achieve her aims. As such, this amendment ensures the ability for the Assembly to bring anything the Deputy Minister wishes to introduce under section 1 of the Bill onto the floor of this Parliament.
In her responses at Stage 2, the Deputy Minister noted that CLAC concluded there should be no Assembly procedure, and that wider powers were not necessary in her view. While I accept these points, we still aren't clear as to whether the provision she intends to introduce would be better suited to affirmative or negative procedures.
Finally, the Deputy Minister confirmed that she would be keeping the powers under review coming up to Stage 3. Therefore, I would be grateful if she would update Members today on her thoughts about the implications of limited powers, especially if there are links between this Bill and other legislation that may require a wider power.
Group 5: Commencement (Amendment 10)
Llywydd:
Group 5 is our final group of amendments, and the amendments relate to commencement. Amendment 10 is the lead amendment, and the only amendment. Janet Finch-Saunders to speak to amendment 10.
Janet:
Diolch, Llywydd. Turning to amendment 10, this is split into three parts: to delay the commencement of section 1, including the revision of Crown Prosecution Service guidance; an alternative pathway away from the criminal justice system to be established; and the establishment of parenting support.
The Deputy Minister will no doubt be familiar with the arguments that Welsh Conservatives placed when we tabled these as separate amendments at Stage 2, but I think that the National Assembly for Wales should be aware of our reasoning behind the delays. I must repeat that this Bill will have far-reaching impacts, not only on the rights of the child, but also the lives of their parents. The Deputy Minister has consistently said throughout the Bill's legislative progress that she wants this to engender a behavioural change. However, she could have done this through awareness raising or civil enforcement, rather than to expose parents to criminal liability.
The potential effects of this exposure are so utterly serious and could have severely negative impacts on parents, children and families, which I have outlined previously in my amendments in group 1. We are not satisfied that parenting support will be properly established by the time the Bill fully comes into force. We are well aware in this Chamber of the patchy application of Flying Start, and the Deputy Minister really needs to keep us updated on the progress of Healthy Child Wales's capacity and reach, given that we were told just over half of children had been contacted under the scheme. That is why establishing an alternative way and parenting support before the smacking ban is introduced is essential.
Additionally, including the CPS and police, through the revised charging guidance, makes us stray slightly into reserved matters. Suzy picked this up and noted it at Stage 2. The duties of both bodies sit outside of our competence. Therefore, by passing this Bill without prior sight of this guidance, we as a devolved legislature would be placing serious considerations, such as family relationships, in the hands of two non-devolved bodies. Putting it quite simply, we wouldn't have control over the guidance, which could end up being completely disproportionate to what the Deputy Minister intends.
And, ultimately, it will be the parents and families who will suffer for a policy that has not been thought through. The Deputy Minister admitted to the committee that the strategic implementation group was only in the early stages of discussing what these guidelines may look like, meaning that it's us who are left passing a piece of legislation that gives us no control or input on how parents may be punished for smacking their children. That is actually truly shocking.
I disagree entirely with the Deputy Minister's claims that we would give a non-devolved body power on the way we legislate in Wales. These are very carefully worded amendments that don't seek to confer that power. On the flip side, I remind Members that Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006 places restrictions on our ability to impose, modify or remove the functions of reserved authorities without the consent of the UK Government. So, we have to be careful about Crown consent. Instead, we are seeking reassurance that the Assembly will have some sight of the charging guidelines before the Bill comes into force.
Now, of course, the potential consequences of these actions could be avoided had you decided to protect the rights of the child through civil enforcement. None of us want to criminalise parents unnecessarily, and so it is very important that we must get the alternatives in place before the Bill's provisions commence. It is our duty as an Assembly to ensure that we get it right before the Bill begins, and so I really do urge Members to support this particular amendment. Diolch yn fawr.